67. What Women and People in Public Health are Taught About Money with Natasha Tekeste
As women and people socialized as women, there are so many differences in the ways that we are taught about money compared to men or people socialized as men. We absorb these teachings and it leads to limiting beliefs that prevent us from taking ownership of our wealth and finances. But this week’s guest is here to help you acknowledge your beliefs around money and change your money mindset so you can start creating emotional peace with your money.
Natasha Tekeste is a money mindset coach who works with employees in organizations who want to earn more at work and also entrepreneurs who want to earn more money in their businesses. She coaches them to explore their money mindset and beliefs about money and helps them decide on purpose how they want to start thinking about earning money and increasing wealth.
In this episode, Natasha and I are diving deeper into what women and people in public health are taught about money and the differences between this and what men are taught about money. We’re discussing the power of our money mindset, showing you how to use your money mindset to create security and abundance with your finances, and some examples of how our own lives have changed since working on our own money mindsets.
If you want to take this work deeper and learn the tools and skills to feel better, all while having my support and guidance each step of the way, I invite you to set up a time to chat with me. Click here to grab a spot on my calendar and I can’t wait to speak to you!
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What You Will Discover:
How so many people miss out on what they deserve because they aren’t being exposed to other perspectives, thoughts, and beliefs around money.
Why Natasha believes that your relationship with money is symbolic of your relationship with yourself.
Why so many women and people socialized as women opt out of conversations about money.
How to start viewing money as a tool to have the life you want to have.
Why money mindset is such an important part of your development.
How to use money as an expression of your values and beliefs.
Why your money is not indicative of your value or worth.
How to step into your power and authority with your money.
Resources:
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Rich Bitch: A Simple 12-Step Plan for Getting Your Financial Life Together...Finally by Nicole Lapin
Full Episode Transcript:
Hey, you all, I am so excited you’re here with me today because I have such an exciting special conversation I am sharing with you today with my colleague, Natasha Tekeste, who is a money mindset coach who actually was one of the coaches that I had during a small group kind of retreat I went on several years ago. And we actually had a whole day coaching on money. And I loved our conversation. We sat down a few weeks ago and I’m really excited to share with you.
We talk about a variety of things from what women are taught about money, what folks who work in public health are taught about money. How the limiting beliefs we have internalized and absorb prevent us from taking ownership over our wealth and money and creating more money if we want or even knowing what we want when it comes to financial wealth.
We talk about getting rid of the idea of what’s a right and wrong way to spend your money, to save your money, to use your money, talk about living from a kind of spending money, and thinking about money, and saving money from a money philosophy that’s based on what you want, what you desire. And your values and how that’s fluid and that changes over time. We talk about creating emotional peace with your money, letting go of money judgment, and so, so many other things.
This is a really awesome episode, you can get so much out of it. You might even want to listen more than once because there’s so many incredible nuggets in there, talking about money mindset. So, without further ado let’s get into it, my conversation with Natasha.
Hey, you all, I’m Marissa McKool, and you’re listening to the Redefining Rest Podcast for Public Health Professionals. Here we believe rest is your right. You don’t have to earn it, you just have to learn how to take it and I’m going to teach you. Ready? Come along.
Marissa: I am so excited, Natasha that you’re here to talk to all of our public health folks, folks in other helping professions, social work. We have a lot of folks who work in this field tuning in to talk about money. We talked a little bit last week for those of you who listened to last week’s episode. If you didn’t, that’s okay, you can always go back. But we have Natasha Tekeste, did I say that correctly?
Natasha: Tekeste, you’re close.
Marissa: I even asked her before we started this podcast, kind of wrote it phonetically down. Who is a money mindset coach and actually I don’t know if you remember this, you were one of my small group coaches in Clutch College which is Kara Loewentheil, our coach’s intensive retreat. And it was the weekend actually I decided to start my business. And we did have a whole day on money. Oh my gosh, this is all coming back to me.
Natasha: This was a year and a half ago, it was the January I think, yeah, I totally remember that.
Marissa: Oh my gosh, so now it’s all full circle but I’d love for you to introduce yourself, tell our audience who you are, what you do, any fun stuff you want to share.
Natasha: Yeah, for sure. So, I’m a money mindset coach and I work with predominantly two different types of clients. So, women or people socialized as women who are employees in an organization and want to earn more money at work. And I also work with people who are entrepreneurs and want to earn more money in their business. So, I coach them to look and explore at their money mindset, their beliefs about money in order to help them kind of decide on purpose how they want to think about earning money in whatever capacity that they earn money to increase their wealth.
Marissa: I mean I think that’s perfect, probably the majority of our listeners are employees. But I do have some folks who have side hustles, or are becoming public health entrepreneurs and really big. And I think we need more public health entrepreneurs who have an understanding of the intersection of health, and socialization, and systems, and harm to create businesses that are more equitable and just that make money and then help others. So, you’re the perfect person to have on this podcast right now.
I thought it would be fun to start out, because I think I haven’t talked too much about money on the podcast or with my audience, but I thought it would be fun to start out with both of us sharing a really fun money accomplishment that we’ve created because we’ve changed our money mindset. To give folks an idea of what this work can create for you, so go ahead and start and then I can share mine.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. So just before we started recording I let you know that I was pregnant and I’m preparing to head off on leave here. And I think one of the best accomplishments or one of the things I’m so proud of is that I’m self-employed but I’m prepping to take a period of time off from my business to be a new mom and to recover both myself and care for my baby and help care for my family.
And I think going into it I just feel so much pride and gratitude for this opportunity that I’ve created for myself to be able to step away from work for an extended period of time without all of this scarcity about it. I am nervous because I mean it’s an uncertain period of time and who knows what that will really look like? But I just overall feel so much joy and gratitude for this privilege that I get to now experience and take time off for this shift and change that I’m preparing for in my life.
And I think before having looked at my money beliefs about it, if I was to do something like this it would have just been probably I would have had so much drama about it, about whether or not I could do it, whether or not it was possible for me, whether or not. Yeah, I just think I would almost ruin the experience for myself ahead of time with all of the stress, and worry, and anxiety that I’d be creating as opposed to truly being able to sit in the gratitude, and the pride, and the opportunity that I have now to take some time away from my business.
And so, you can have the same circumstance with money but your emotional experience about that situation can totally change when you shift your beliefs, and you shift your thoughts about the money that you have.
Marissa: Yeah. And I had this experience when I was still working full-time in public health. And a lot of public health organizations in the US, for context, Natasha lives in Canada, so they have a different parental leave policy nationally than the US. But in the US even though we don’t have one, in public health organizations, whether it’s government, or academia, or even non-profit, usually they offer something. And it’s not that great to be honest. The last organization I was in it was basically you had to pay into disability and then you took disability, so it wasn’t really.
But even in that context where you have some access, folks do have a lot of scarcity beliefs about even with that access if they can take it, if it will support them enough, what they can do, and Natasha, you’re self-employed so it’s not like you even have that. And I think in both those circumstances it’s about believing you can create what you need to both circumstantially with your finances to support whatever leave you want but also emotionally.
Because when you’re pregnant and you can speak more to this than me because I’ve never been pregnant. There’s a lot of other stressors and emotions going on. So, to be able to create some peace with your money mindset and that you can take leave, and you have created some security and abundance for yourself to do that financially gives you so much more space for the other things that you have to think about, and plan for, and put into place.
Natasha: Exactly. That’s 100% it. There’s the financial security bucket which is literally having dollars in the bank. But then there is the emotional security bucket which is creating that calm and sense of peace and grounded-ness that doesn’t actually come from having money. That actually just comes from shifting your beliefs and your thoughts about the money.
And that is the part that is so powerful because as you said, when I can let go of the worry and anxiety and trust myself, and trust the security that I’ve created for myself, now I can spend my mental capacity thinking about other things. Because there’s so many other things to think about in pregnancy than just the money for this period of time off that I’m planning to step away from my business.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think it also it gives you so much more space to be creative, of how to create that financial circumstance you want. Because when you’re so in scarcity and believing you won’t have enough money or you can’t do it, it’s going to be a problem, your brain can’t be creative to think of, okay, well, how could I mix my PTO or sick leave? Or how can I really advocate for this policy change, or how can I start a side hustle to save money? Or how can my partner and I fix our leave schedule, so it supports us?
Whatever it may be, there’s so many options but when you’re in scarcity you can’t even get to that space to think creatively.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly, that’s 100% it. Then you don’t even see the other possibilities or other opportunities that might be available to you because you’re just generating a ton of worry, and stress, and anxiety, which never fuels positive steps forward to create your desired result essentially.
Marissa: Yeah. And with mine actually it’s so funny we’re doing this because mine actually has to do with starting my business. So, working in public health my whole career. And having the trajectory where you go to school, you get your bachelor’s, you get your master’s and then you follow a fellowship and it’s very structured, you follow this plan. The idea of starting a business, before I really did work on my money mindset I always had this, it’d be cool to have a social enterprise, social entrepreneur.
But I have to go to business school, I always thought that, or I should have got done an MBA, MPH. And I have to go back to school. And changing my money mindset and doing work I really realized that’s not true. I don’t have to go back and get another degree. I even looked into degrees where it’s like am I really going to pay $100,000/$150,000 to then go start? It was just changing my money mindset let me see I can do this now and I can create this now and I did while working.
And then was able to leave and to do that while working a public health job and then create a business that serves folks in public health and still make money and show myself I can make money. It still blows my mind sometimes when I think about it. And old Marissa three years ago would probably be in disbelief. But that’s the power of changing your money mindset.
Natasha: Totally. And I think that’s such an amazing example. So, for context, my background was in human resources. And I worked for over a decade in HR. And I’ve worked in a variety of different organizations, but I spent a lot of my career in government. And I don’t know if government is the same as public health type of positions, but I think it’s once people are in they want to just stay in their government position. And it’s laid out for them, and they have their pension, and benefits, and their career path already set up.
But then it becomes so much more of a mindset shift to be able to leave this very structured pathway or this ‘easier,’ not easier, you’re still working. And it’s more traditional and more laid out for you, to try something new. And I just saw so many people kind of limit themselves and their careers because they were just like, “Well, I’m here in this job, this pathway is laid out, this is what I’m supposed to be doing.” As opposed to pivoting and creating kind of their own, yeah, their own new next step or their own new venture or whatever.
And I just think it’s so interesting because oftentimes in those fields it is a little bit more scary and that is such a huge fete and accomplishment to be able to be like, “Hey, it took so much more courage and bravery for me to step away from this traditional pathway to do something that I’ve been contemplating, and thinking about, and dreaming about.”
Marissa: Yeah. And even for folks who are staying in the field, for you that might look like making more money than you thought was possible because everyone in your organization has only made x amount, and creating that. Or whether it’s going to a different sector, maybe going to the private sector of public health, and creating more money. And maybe it’s not even about increasing your salary, maybe it’s about buying a home, or investing, or feeling more empowered.
There’s so many different ways that you can use money mindset to create security and abundance in your experience with your finances. It’s not always just salary, or creating a business, it can be so many different things. So, with that I’d be curious, before coaching, maybe you had a good money mindset before coaching. So, if that’s true, you can just share your money mindset.
But I know for lots of folks, especially folks socialized as women, has helped us with our money mindset because of the way we’re socialized is coaching, or other forms of self-help, or podcasts to really think about it. So, I’m just curious, before coaching or before you really got into this work what was your money philosophy or money mindset?
Natasha: Yeah, totally. So, I think I was always just very aware that having money made your life easier or there were people with money and having money was a good accomplishment or a thing to strive towards. So, I think I just was aware of that. But for me I always thought it meant I had to save money. I came out of so much scarcity where I thought it’s not for someone who looks like me. It’s not for people who are like me. But if I can just save it because I’m so lucky to have what I have or I’m so lucky to have had this job, that I’ve been able to get or whatever, then I’ll be okay.
So, it kind of came from this hustle scarcity, worried mentality that wasn’t necessarily really serving me because it led to me staying in jobs for way too long or just thinking that I wasn’t really worthy of it, or I didn’t really deserve it. So, I would never negotiate a salary, or ask for more money, or try new things because I just thought that I was so lucky to be where I was. And I wasn’t even making that much money. It’s just that’s how I was socialized to think about it. So, it came so much from a saving.
There’s not going to be a lot out there. There’s not enough for me so I need to just make sure that I’m cutting out expenses to save it.
Marissa: Yeah, which a lot of what you’re speaking to is a lot of the messages that folks socialized as women get. Women are really taught when it comes to money of how you’re good with money is by saving. Where men are taught very different, you’re good with money by taking risks and investing. And women are taught, well, you should just feel lucky. It's not an exchange of value, you’re lucky to get a salary or you shouldn’t negotiate because it’s rude or you might lose it.
There’s so many messages that folks specifically socialized as women get about money compared to folks socialized as men.
Natasha: 100%, and that shows up all the time and it shows up in work environments. For example, I would see so many women or people socialized as women just opt out of negotiating their salary before they stepped into a new position because they thought they were just lucky to have that job offer. So, if you’re coming at it thinking that you’re lucky to even have that offer or get that position then of course you’re not going to speak up and ask for more or negotiate the benefits that you want to have. Maybe you want an extra week of vacation or whatever.
You’re not even coming at it from that lens and what I also found so fascinating, especially being in HR was seeing high performing women at work going into performance conversations, being extremely anxious about their work and about how they were performing in the organization. And so stressed to the point that sometimes they would be in tears going into these conversations.
And so, when that’s the emotional framework that you’re starting with, you are not coming into that conversation talking about your accomplishments, talking about what you’ve done for the organization and your clients. Or even talking about your desires in terms of your benefits, or salary increase, or promotion, or next opportunity. So those kinds of socializations limit and hold people in marginalized identities back in their work environments for sure.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think in helping professions like in public health, the added layer is that then you have this narrative of well, we don’t have that much money, or I know what the budget is, or we’re funded through grants. And so, then I feel bad. And it’s so interesting because that I think itself is also socialization based on gender because I saw so many of my male colleagues or peers who didn’t really have that narrative. They understood the budget, they knew that we were grant funded, but they were much more rooted in this is the value I’m providing, and I want to be compensated this way.
And I think again it’s our socialization of feeling lucky, or not burning others, or not taking an advantage. Versus no, this is the value I’m providing. And most women in public health are going way above and beyond their position title, their position description, their salary and just not feeling empowered to be able to say, “This is the value I’m providing, and this is what I want in return.” And then deciding what to do if you don’t get that.
Natasha: Exactly, right that. You always have a choice, you have a choice to stay and accept what is being offered. You have a choice to renegotiate, you have a choice to leave. There’s so many different opportunities but when you don’t see that you limit yourself. And what I think is so interesting, especially people in helping positions is they often act like they’re volunteers.
Marissa: Oh my gosh, yes.
Natasha: I’m like, “You’re not volunteering. This is a two way employment relationship. Your employer is getting something, and you are intended to get something. So now let’s actually have a conversation where you’re negotiating in that employment contract that is two ways. You’re not a volunteer for this organization.” You can volunteer in your personal time in other things, but your job is not a volunteer position.
And I think shifting that belief is a hard thing for people in helping positions because especially people socialized as women are taught that we’re supposed to put other people first. And that’s what makes us a good person, by emptying our cup, by giving everything to other people and you can’t do that. You have to start with grounding yourself and filling your own cup first before you can truly show up and serve other people.
Marissa: Yeah. And I also think it’s funny because once I started to get on the other side in public health where I was on hiring committees, where I was running the budget. What I saw behind the curtains is when there was a candidate that they wanted they would go to work to get them that extra salary if they asked. And we have this belief, well, I can’t ask, or I’ll lose it, or they’ll think I’m selfish, or greedy. And behind the curtain what folks don’t see is, no, they will do that work. And if they don’t then maybe it’s not the place for you.
But the understanding that if you ask they get to choose and often they’re doing that work to try to get you those funds and make it happen because they want you. And we don’t think of it that way, we’re not thinking my skills are desired, I’m valuable. We’re like, “Please give me money, please.”
Natasha: Right, exactly, like you’re asking for a handout from your organization that you’re paid your time for. It’s so interesting because if you were being offered the job you were their top candidate. You were someone they want to hire. So now they’ve decided they want to hire you, of course they’re going to try to meet your requests in terms of salary, or benefit, negotiation, or vacation time, or whatever. And so that’s the part to think about is they’re not doing you a favor by offering you a position. They need someone to fill the role and they want to hire you.
So that’s the role, that’s the piece that you have going into that conversation.
Marissa: Yeah. And same if you’re working in trying to negotiate for a promotion or raise, when I was doing the budgeting stuff I administered the budget, but I didn’t have the final say, people above me did. But what I saw was when they wanted something to happen with the budget they made that happen and moved it around whether it’s their salary increase or whether it’s funds to do a certain event. So, you can totally negotiate and bring up a raise and they may choose to say no and then you can choose to walk away.
But do not believe that they literally cannot change the budget, or find more money, or do work, they totally can. They get that choice, that’s not something you get to control. But what’s in your power is choosing to advocate for yourself, choosing to show up, choosing to decide what you want.
Natasha: Choosing to engage in that conversation as a very first step instead of just opting out entirely because you think it’s not possible. I have seen people in unionized positions be able to negotiate different salaries or get different benefits when people are telling me it’s impossible. It is always possible for you to kind of show up and ask, and for the employer, and the HR team, and your hiring manager to look into it and potentially make some exceptions, or make some changes, or whatever.
And so, you need to start with just first recognizing that it is a possibility because if you’re coming at it thinking there’s no way, there’s no hope then you just shut down all hope for yourself having that conversation, taking that [crosstalk].
Marissa: Yeah, definitely. So, we’ve talked a little bit about how folks who are socialized as women have absorbed some of these beliefs. I’m curious, do you think the clients you work with, the people you work with, that women of color have additional kind of messages they have absorbed about money that are layered on top?
Natasha: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And just for context for people who don’t know me. I’m biracial so I’m half Black, half white. And I’ve always lived in predominantly white communities, so I know what it’s like to live in a marginalized identity as a person of color. And I think for me when I was thinking about this question, when you had sent me some questions beforehand was it was more just the idea of luck. You’re lucky to be in this position. You’re lucky to have this money. Money isn’t for people like you, for families like you.
And so, I think for me that is what I would say predominantly is the additional layer of messaging. And I know everyone has different experiences but especially being either the only or one of few woman of color or people of color in an organization, I just think that that was kind of my experience in it. And it took away from me feeling confident enough to maybe speak up sometimes because I just felt, I’m just lucky to be here in this organization. I’m just so, I should be grateful for what I’m being given. I should just be happy with what I have.
As opposed to really owning the fact that, no, I am an equal member of the team just like everyone else.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think part of that, I always see it in public health a lot and in academia is around affirmative action which are policies that really try to promote more equity around hiring and really thinking about who you are hiring and why. And so, there is kind of an outcome of this narrative of, well, you’re just the diversity hire which when you look at the data, the folks who are most benefitted by affirmative action actually were white women. That’s who benefitted the most.
Natasha: Well, that’s basically what the DEI has really put an emphasis on women. And it’s basically supported and assisted white women to get into more leadership positions and seeing diversity of women and men on boards. It’s not even full diversity in that sense. It’s just a few women to kind of diversify the boards from just an all-white men basic equation. So now I think the conversation has opened up to recognizing all the other layers of marginalized identities that exist beyond just white women in organizations moving up the ‘corporate ladder’ if that’s what you want to call it.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think your comment about this belief that you’re just lucky also I think I’ve seen in other folks with other marginal identities also have some of these beliefs. So, some folks who are disabled, this belief, I’m just lucky to have this job. That also comes up with folks with other marginalized identities. And to me that belief system is by design by these systems of oppression, so you don’t advocate for yourself, so you don’t really believe in your values, so you don’t live fully as you are, so you don’t go for the big goals.
Natasha: Yeah. So, you don’t speak up, that belief immediately shuts you down because when you think you’re lucky and you should be grateful then of course you’re never going to rock the boat. Of course, you’re not going to bring up your ideas or try to create shift and change when you see problematic things happening in your organization, particularly around things like DEI. Yeah, so I really think that that, like you said, it’s by design. It's there to keep people small. It’s there to keep people quiet and just maybe give the image of diversity on the face of it.
But what truly is the organization doing to help support DEI initiatives beyond just a little bit of representation?
Marissa: Yeah. And then specifically in public health the truth is because especially – I mean all over the world but I’m thinking in the US context because that’s where most of my experience has been. The communities that we are serving are very diverse. And so, we need a workforce that is very diverse. So, it’s not about luck, it’s we need folks with all different types of lived experience and perspective at the table in the organization. And you deserve to be there, and you are so valuable because of your knowledge, your skills, and your lived experience.
And when you believe I’m just lucky then public health misses out on all of that.
Natasha: Literally the people in the communities that you serve miss out because they are not getting other perspectives, and thoughts, and beliefs brought into the conversation and lived experiences, 100%. It’s just a very limited viewpoint in conversations that are just filled with people who basically come from very similar lived experiences or very similar identities. And you’re just not able to fully serve people.
And I saw that a lot in HR as well where I would see discriminatory practices happen where people didn’t even realize that they were maybe discriminating because they just had such a limited viewpoint and there wasn’t enough diversity. Or there wasn’t enough people to maybe speak up for different things. So yeah, everyone kind of gets to benefit when we include people of different marginalized identities at seats at the table.
Marissa: Yes, absolutely. And the other thing that I hear a lot of women and Kara talks about this a lot, and we talk about this in other kind of spaces you and I, and in the coaching kind of feminist world. Is that women are taught to believe that their value is through how hard they work and not their intellect, or their innovation, or their ideas. And when what I’ve heard from a lot of my students of color is then this messaging for women of color, particularly Black women around well, you have to work twice as hard to get half as far, so it’s additional layer.
And so, then what I find happening is folks, they kind of go to work, they work twice as hard, they take on more work than they’re maybe asked to or their job description. And then they don’t negotiate for compensation for that because we’ve kind of been taught, well, if you’re working hard enough then they’ll notice and they’ll offer it to you which isn’t always, half the time it doesn’t.
Natasha: No, it doesn’t happen at all. And now basically the organization is benefitting from all this free labor of people of color or people of marginalized identities, yeah, for sure. It is an interesting thing to think about especially in money because we don’t live in a meritocracy. We don’t live in a world that’s fair where economic resources are evenly distributed amongst people. And to not acknowledge that I think is ignorant. And it almost puts a blind eye on what is actually happening in the world in which we live.
So, what I like to think about is yes, these oppressive structures do exist, 100% they do. And they are intended and designed to hold people of color or people in other marginalized identities back. And it does make it more challenging, and it provides more obstacles, but do I want to now opt out of the conversation, opt out because of these obstacles? Or do I want to show up and still work in the face of this to create change for myself, and change for future generations, and for other people who look like me?
I think about it as yes, we have to start by acknowledging the social structures that we live in and the inequalities that exist in our communities, of course they exist. And to not talk about them means you’re living a privileged life where you don’t even notice them and how lucky you are. But the reality is we don’t live in a meritocracy where things are just handed out evenly to everyone.
Marissa: Yeah. If they are handed out, it’s unevenly, inequitably.
Natasha: Inequitably.
Marissa: And I think you’re right. This conversation isn’t about denying the wage gap, or discrimination, or anything like that, but it’s saying you always have a choice. You have a choice to advocate to get paid more, or to get more benefits, for the value you are bringing. And if your employer chooses not to honor that you have a choice to stay or to leave. And you can open up so many more opportunities to think about how to create whatever financial wealth is for you, whether it’s salary, or benefits, or investing, or owning a home, or having a side hustle or whatever it will be.
When you open up the belief that even though you face these challenges or circumstances you have a choice and you can choose to create the wealth you want, that’s so much more empowering.
Natasha: Yes, exactly. When you come at it from an empowered place then you can actually work towards creating the shifts and changes that you want to see in your life versus just feel angry, and upset, and frustrated by all of the inequalities that are happening, because yes, they are happening. And of course, you’re entitled to feel angry, and upset, and frustrated for as long as you want. That’s 100% up to you but also recognize that when you take on the belief system that society’s offering you based on your marginalized identities.
So, if I take on the belief that money isn’t for someone who looks like me then I now become the oppressor of myself in my own brain. I am now limiting myself in my own mind because I’m choosing to believe the negative messaging that society has offered rather than disregarding that, or seeing it as bullshit and not a truth about me and my possibilities. And recognizing that I can choose to take a step forward to create change and create generational wealth for other people who look like me.
Marissa: Yeah. And I also think when you start – this happened to me, when I started to really do money mindset work one of the biggest things was actually seeing the ways in which I actually am good with money. Because we absorb these messages then we believe a lot of fallacies. And when I started to do this work I saw, actually I’m not bad with money, I’m great with money, look at all these ways, I’m investing, I am spending, that aligns with my values.
You can acknowledge the ways in which you are good with money and then you can choose to believe other things you want to, to create more money, or create more wealth, however you want to define that.
Natasha: Totally. And you get to define how being good or great with money actually looks like too. I think a lot of people fall into this pit of just listening to what society tells you what being good with money actually means and the rules of you need to spend 10% on a house. All of that is actual bullshit that has been created predominantly by wealthy rich old white men and rules that they have designed for themselves. And those rules might actually not fit you and your lifestyle, your values and what you want to create for yourself.
So, recognizing that you get to decide, maybe that means buying a coffee every single day because you enjoy drinking coffee and that’s totally fine. You don’t have to be like, “Well, this coffee calculation of how much I spend every single day is taking me away from my ability to buy a house,” or whatever that dumb [crosstalk] is. You get to set those rules for yourself and that’s truly where you can step into your own authority and power with your money.
Marissa: Yeah, I remember I had this moment, I think I was 25 or something where I read this book, I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, it’s called Rich Bitch, I forget the author’s name. But basically, it was written in a way, it was the first time I heard money advice that was, you get to decide. There’s not a right or wrong. It’s about what matters to you and your values. And it changes over time and that was so empowering to me. And to know that hey, buying isn’t always better than renting. Or getting a new car isn’t always better than having an old car.
Or investing isn’t always better than saving or whatever it may be. It’s about what works for you and your circumstance with your values, with your goals, and that changes over time.
Natasha: Yeah. And letting that be a fluid thing in your life and not having to be super rigid and structured. I love coaching on money mindset. I love digging into my own money mindset. I also just don’t have a budget. I think budgeting is terrible. I hate budgeting. I feel awful every time I sit down to budget. It’s not something that works for me. Putting my money into categories that I’m going to try to fit into the month just doesn’t make sense for me and my lifestyle.
And so, it’s just giving yourself the freedom and flexibility to have a relationship with your money in a way that actually is fun, and exciting and serves you rather than just trying to follow these arbitrary guidelines and rules that maybe aren’t set up for someone with your lifestyle and what you want to do in your own life.
Marissa: That was a perfect example because I love budgeting. I have a very specific budget that I do every single month. And it’s not one is right, and one is wrong. It’s, what is right for you.
Natasha: Exactly. That is the whole point of this is stepping into your own, being the decider of your own relationship with your money, literally. Do I like budgeting, that’s something that serves me or not? There’s no right or wrong. There’s none of these options is better or worse than the other.
Marissa: Yeah, definitely. And I’m seeing this a lot, I am engaged right now, me and my fiancé are talking through, “Okay, what do we want when we get married for our money to be? Do we want to share everything, do we not?” And I think one of what I’m in these conversations that I’m really proud of is because I’ve really thought about money and done my money mindset. I understand my own money philosophy and what matters to me, and where I want to keep independence and where I want to share things.
And as women there’s just hundreds of years of the socialization that women aren’t good with money, that men are smart with money and women aren’t, that they’re frivolous or whatever it may be. And that’s a lot to shed and that’s a lot of work on it. It still comes up for me of course. But being in these conversations with my fiancé, it’s just living in that empowerment of I know what I believe about money. I feel confident about it. It feels really good rather than fear driven, or scarcity, or putting myself down which I think a lot of women have been socialized to do.
Natasha: And also, you get to be an equal partner in this conversation with your fiancé. Whereas I think a lot of women in particular who have been socialized in these ways, opt out of these conversations and they just assume that they’re too stupid, or too dumb, or too frivolous and irresponsible with money and it’s not for them. Instead, it’s for usually their male partners to figure out, and take responsibility and ownership for it. And to me that’s just so sad. And I feel so disheartened by it all because it's not too smart for anyone, you can figure out money.
You can learn your own money philosophy. You can learn how you want to spend, and invest, and save your money, and grow your wealth. And just anything that you’re learning, it’s okay to make mistakes along the way. It’s okay to let it be a journey that you’re evolving on and figuring out, throughout whatever that progression happens to look like. I have coached a few women on investing recently and I thought it was so interesting because I don’t tell people what to invest in. I’m not a financial planner or advisor.
I just coach people on their money beliefs or their mindset about whatever action they want to take and so these people were coming at it thinking that they had to invest everything right away, all or nothing. There was no flexibility and no options. We got to the point in the conversation was like, “What if we just tried investing a little bit? If you’re learning a new skill, you’re not going to all of a sudden dump everything into it and just hope that it works out without just taking little baby steps.”
So, the fact that they just put so much pressure on themselves to know everything as opposed to letting it be a learning journey I thought was really fascinating. Because I think we’re socialized that we’re dumb and we can’t figure it out so we’re just like, “Oh my God, I need to just get away from this discomfort.” As opposed to if I was learning how to cook I wouldn’t all of a sudden start to make a seven course meal as my very first [inaudible].
Marissa: Yeah. And I think a layer on top of that because we do live in a capitalistic society, then we’re also told that the only measure of success is how much money you make. And in public health and helping professions I think that message gets muted a little bit. But it’s still there and so to say it doesn’t have an impact I don’t think is fair, it definitely has an impact, and it shows up in the ways we think about how we think about ourselves and what it means if we don’t own a home, or if we don’t invest, or if we don’t do these things.
And I think part of the money mindset work is undoing that and deciding for yourself on purpose what you want to believe about money, how you want to spend your money, how you want to save your money and what you want your money philosophy and values to be.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. And the whole point of this conversation isn’t to go out and tell people, “You should earn more, you should try to buy a house, or you should invest in these ways.” I never ever tell people what to do. It’s really about you examining your own belief systems and deciding for yourself what is right for you, recognizing that you have that power and that authority to decide. There is no right or wrong answer here. There’s no kind of solution that we’re trying to figure out for you. You know the solution for yourself.
And uncovering some of these limiting beliefs and starting to question them is really how you dig into that, and you get to know yourself on a much deeper level. I think your relationship with money is a reflection of your relationship with yourself and how you’re treating yourself. This is why I love coaching on it so much, it’s never about the money, it’s never about earning money. It’s never about saving money.
It’s really about how are you showing up for yourself and having your own back, and loving who you are, and loving the choices that you’re making. And respecting yourself and showing up with compassion and understanding for the person that you are.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think in helping professions we kind of have absorbed this belief that you can’t make money and do good work in the world. And so, for everyone listening I would say that for so many of you, it’s hard to access what your true desire is with money because it’s so weighed down by that internalized belief. So, undoing that is kind of the first step to being able to access what you truly do want. If you truly do want to make more money or do want to buy something specific, or spend money on travel versus spend money on a home or whatever it may be.
We’ve got to lift that limiting belief that’s not true, that to do good work in the world you can’t make good money or have wealth off of that.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. That’s such a powerful starting point because that belief immediately stops you from questioning or thinking about, yeah, thinking about your own desires, and your own needs, and what you want to cultivate and create in your work and in your life, and what you want that to look like. So, I think that’s a beautiful starting point. And recognizing, this is how I think about money, I think of money as just a tool. It’s a tool that I get to use to create the life that I want to have. It is not a reflection of my worth. It’s not a reflection of who I am as a person or my moral character.
It's just the currency that we’ve decided in society that we use to exchange values, and goods, and services, and products and things like that.
Marissa: Right. And we’ve literally just created this paper and said it’s valuable. There has been times in histories and some communities still today, they don’t have money as currency. And they trade things, or they trade services. And this idea that this piece of paper, humans just created that and assigned value to it. And so, it is just a tool.
Natasha: And my favorite thing about it is we don’t even use cash these days. It’s all digital currency on screens with numbers. It’s just so funny thinking how meta it is, we don’t even touch it physically. It’s just all electronic.
Marissa: Yeah. And I don’t know if you have this experience, but I do and I get cash for birthdays or something, it feels different. It’s free money. It doesn’t come out of my bank account. Yeah, it’s really trippy when you think about it and now of course with cryptocurrency which we won’t get into but that’s a whole another layer of mind fuck a little bit. Yeah, I think money is a tool. I also think of it, for me and I’m not saying anyone else should have this belief. You can try it on and see if it works for you.
But for me right where I am in my life, I like to think of money as a way to express my values, whether that’s spending money in organizations I support or whether it’s spending money in support of what I find fun, what I enjoy. There’s so many different ways to use money as an expression of who you are, whether it’s buying make-up that you love, or it’s buying products from a company you support, or whatever it may be, it’s an expression almost.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. It’s a way to create, I think the community that you want to live in by voting on what organizations you want to spend your money on, or what local shops, or what businesses you want to support, or where you want to donate your money. It is a tool that you can use to create change and I love to think of money as that. We just assign so much morality to it, but it’s really not that. I love how you said it’s a way to express who you are. And you can only get to know yourself more through the money if you let yourself question those beliefs.
Marissa: Yes. And question the judgment. We’ve been kind of told to judge how people spend their money and what they spend it on. And I’m definitely not out of this, at the Clutch College one of the things I had to get coached on was my judgment of the Kardashians. Because I had all these beliefs. Well, they have all this money, and they should be doing this, they should be doing that. And that doesn’t serve me at all, having this judgment. And just seeing that money is neutral, someone else spending money every month on getting manicures and pedicures isn’t a problem.
Me spending money every month on traveling isn’t a problem. The judgment is optional when it comes to the money usage and money saving and all that.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. And when we’re spending our time and energy judging other people we know that’s just a mirror of us judging ourselves and our own spending. So, when you see that come up it’s like get curious of why is it so problematic for me that other people are making these choices? Where am I judging myself and my own spending habits? Because one of the things that I think is so important with money is de-shamifying it as a very first starting point.
So many of my clients hold so much shame about past spending, or current spending, or money decisions, or choices that they’ve made. And we just need to start by taking off that layer of shame and just letting you be a human who’s showing up in the world imperfectly, try to figure things out. And yeah, allowed to make new choices now if they want to, or keep making the old choices, it’s totally fine. All of it is okay, if we lower the stakes and not fuel it with so much shame then we can start to get a little bit more curious about what’s actually happening and what’s actually going on.
Marissa: Yeah. And this isn’t to say you have to feel neutral about everything. You can still decide on purpose, hey, I don’t believe we should live in a world where there are billionaires and then there are people who can’t afford the basic living. You can choose to hold that belief, but I just want folks to notice when you come to looking at the way other people make money or spend money from deep judgment then actually what ends up happening which is so ironic is you stop spending your money in a way that algins with your values and what you want to do.
Because you’re just kind of in this tug, blame, shame space that you can’t get really much movement and traction to live and use the money in the ways that you want to because you’re just so in judgment.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. You’re so focused on other people that you’re not focused on yourself. You’re allowed to focus on other people if you want to, that’s totally fine, it’s okay. But just recognize if it’s creating a lot of negative emotion for you, that might not actually be fueling your own money decisions in the way that you want to. And it may be taking you away from getting curious about your own values, your own priorities, your own beliefs, and things like that.
So, I mean like we said before, we’re never here to tell anyone what to think, you always get to decide for yourself. But I just always think a beautiful place to start is just getting curious about what’s happening because when you come from it with curiosity that’s when you can start to decide whether or not you like what you’re believing. Whether it’s serving you or whether you want to try to believe something else on purpose.
Marissa: Yeah, definitely. And I think for me doing some of this work around my judgments with people who make a lot of money. And I think a lot of folks in helping professions where we, there are limitations about how much grants we have, and funding, and the government making decisions, and donations, and the non-profit industrial complex, and all of that. And I think we tend to go to that place of judgment, of the people in the world who hold a lot of money or have a lot of money.
And through my own coaching work I still hold some opinions around, well, I don’t want to support x, y, and z, or I want to try not to support them. But I also have created more of this opinion of I’m going to do the work in the world I can to make sure folks who are helping others and in public health are getting paid their value. And so, it’s both, I can hold this belief, but I also can create a belief that fuels me in a direction that creates the action and the life that I want to live.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. It’s recognizing what’s in your realm of control. And not stewing on things that are totally out of your control that take you away from intentional action towards the things that are literally within your control, that you can do, which is how much you pay people, how much you spend on different services, what organizations you choose to buy from, those types of things, exactly.
Marissa: Yeah. So, I’ve heard you say a couple of things, folks who are listening can start to examine their money mindset, one of which is just getting curious. Do you have any recommendations of how folks can actually get curious and do that initial work to explore their thoughts around money? Because so many of us, we just think the thoughts about money, and we have it as facts.
Natasha: For sure, and a lot of it is reinforced by either family, friends, people in society, so it’s so much a question. So honestly the way that I think is the best thing is just literally write all your thoughts out about money on a piece of paper, get them out. You can honestly just ask yourself, what do I think about money, or what do I think about people who have and earn money? Get it all out and that is your starting point of all of the things that you are believing about money, both consciously and subconsciously.
You’ve gotten them all out on paper and from that point in time start to get curious about those beliefs. Do they actually feel good for you? Do they actually make you show up in the way that you want to be showing up at work to earn more money, if that’s your goal, and your side hustle to earn more money, if that’s what you want to be doing. Whatever you want to be doing notice if those beliefs actually bring you closer towards the goals that you want to have in your life. And if not, start to question them.
What if the opposite was true, what if this wasn’t an actual fact of the world, can I find any evidence that might prove otherwise? And just start to stretch your brain and your capacities around what you’ve simply been accepting as truth with money.
Marissa: Yeah. I think that’s great. And then I also would add on to that of think about where you’ve received money messages from, family or figures in the world and just question that. A lot of the predominant financial voices in society and in mainstream are they reflective of your lived experience? Are they reflective of your community? Are they reflective of your values? It is very skewed. So, when we start to question where we’re getting these messages from, that can also help us open up a little bit more.
Natasha: Yes, totally. And one of the questions I love to ask myself and ask my clients is who benefits from me keeping this belief? Do I benefit from believing that women are frivolous and irresponsible with money? Do people socialized as women benefit or is it other people in society? Just really starting to question the benefit of that belief and whether or not it’s benefiting you. It can be so powerful and such deep work.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think about this in the helping and public health in general. When a lot of folks in public health don’t believe that they’re good with money, or deserve money, or they’re just lucky, or they’re just volunteering. And then they don’t advocate to get more money then the government doesn’t have to figure out how to allocate more budget.
A way to hold the government or other funding sources accountable to support this work and the value of it is for all of us to work on our money mindsets and really come to work advocating for ourselves, and what we want, and our value. And that moves up. And it’s not to say it’s going to happen overnight but it’s a collective power we’re creating by doing that individual work.
Natasha: Yes, exactly. It can be so powerful and so transformational for the communities in which we live and work. So yeah, it benefits everyone, not just yourself. When you earn more money, or you dig into these belief systems, and you really start to question what you’ve been taking in and how you’ve been socialized. You’re not just changing your own life, you’re changing people who are connected to you lives. So, either future generations, your family, people who look like you, people in the community with you. It just carries forward.
And that’s why I’m so passionate about money mindset work is because I see it as a way to create true change in our communities and in our societies in which we live.
Marissa: Yeah, I agree. We have more folks in public health who really are thinking about every decision in their life in a way of how is this impacting my community because that’s kind of how we’re trained. Money is a part of that and how you choose to use your money. And if you make more money you’re just going to do more good in the world because you’re going to spend it in places in your community that aligns with your values.
And so, I know a lot of folks say we want more folks in helping professions with kind of that belief in community to have more money so that we can create more wealth across our kind of communities.
Natasha: Yeah, totally.
Marissa: Well, thank you so much, Natasha. Is there anything we didn’t cover you want to share before we close out including share where folks can find you and all of that?
Natasha: Yeah, for sure. We’ve covered so many topics, so thank you so much for having me. This was such a fun conversation. So, if you are interested in connecting with me you can find me on my website which is my first and last name, so Natasha N-A-T-A-S-H-A Tekeste T-E-K-E-S-T-E.com or you can find me on Instagram and my handle is just my first and last name.
Marissa: And we will link all of those in the show notes so you can all get connected to Natasha and all her great work. And thank you so much for coming. We did cover a lot, but it just is there’s so much here which is why money mindset is just such an important part of our self-development especially as folks socialized as women.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. And especially as people in helping positions, really it’s so much more beneficial for you to be able to earn more money because we know that you just have this kind, caring, loving heart and just wants to do good in the world. And it has to start with you doing good for yourself, just advocating for yourself and the money and wealth that you want to create.
Marissa: Yes. Okay, with that, we can’t end on a better note, we’ll wrap up here. Thank you so much everyone, I’ll talk to you next week.
Natasha: Thanks for having me.
If you found this episode helpful then you have to check out my coaching program where I provide you individualized support to create a life centered around rest. Head on over to mckoolcoaching.com, that’s M-C-K-O-O-L coaching.com to learn more.
We talk about a variety of things from what women are taught about money, what folks who work in public health are taught about money. How the limiting beliefs we have internalized and absorb prevent us from taking ownership over our wealth and money and creating more money if we want or even knowing what we want when it comes to financial wealth.
We talk about getting rid of the idea of what’s a right and wrong way to spend your money, to save your money, to use your money, talk about living from a kind of spending money, and thinking about money, and saving money from a money philosophy that’s based on what you want, what you desire. And your values and how that’s fluid and that changes over time. We talk about creating emotional peace with your money, letting go of money judgment, and so, so many other things.
This is a really awesome episode, you can get so much out of it. You might even want to listen more than once because there’s so many incredible nuggets in there, talking about money mindset. So, without further ado let’s get into it, my conversation with Natasha.
Hey, you all, I’m Marissa McKool, and you’re listening to the Redefining Rest Podcast for Public Health Professionals. Here we believe rest is your right. You don’t have to earn it, you just have to learn how to take it and I’m going to teach you. Ready? Come along.
Marissa: I am so excited, Natasha that you’re here to talk to all of our public health folks, folks in other helping professions, social work. We have a lot of folks who work in this field tuning in to talk about money. We talked a little bit last week for those of you who listened to last week’s episode. If you didn’t, that’s okay, you can always go back. But we have Natasha Tekeste, did I say that correctly?
Natasha: Tekeste, you’re close.
Marissa: I even asked her before we started this podcast, kind of wrote it phonetically down. Who is a money mindset coach and actually I don’t know if you remember this, you were one of my small group coaches in Clutch College which is Kara Loewentheil, our coach’s intensive retreat. And it was the weekend actually I decided to start my business. And we did have a whole day on money. Oh my gosh, this is all coming back to me.
Natasha: This was a year and a half ago, it was the January I think, yeah, I totally remember that.
Marissa: Oh my gosh, so now it’s all full circle but I’d love for you to introduce yourself, tell our audience who you are, what you do, any fun stuff you want to share.
Natasha: Yeah, for sure. So, I’m a money mindset coach and I work with predominantly two different types of clients. So, women or people socialized as women who are employees in an organization and want to earn more money at work. And I also work with people who are entrepreneurs and want to earn more money in their business. So, I coach them to look and explore at their money mindset, their beliefs about money in order to help them kind of decide on purpose how they want to think about earning money in whatever capacity that they earn money to increase their wealth.
Marissa: I mean I think that’s perfect, probably the majority of our listeners are employees. But I do have some folks who have side hustles, or are becoming public health entrepreneurs and really big. And I think we need more public health entrepreneurs who have an understanding of the intersection of health, and socialization, and systems, and harm to create businesses that are more equitable and just that make money and then help others. So, you’re the perfect person to have on this podcast right now.
I thought it would be fun to start out, because I think I haven’t talked too much about money on the podcast or with my audience, but I thought it would be fun to start out with both of us sharing a really fun money accomplishment that we’ve created because we’ve changed our money mindset. To give folks an idea of what this work can create for you, so go ahead and start and then I can share mine.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. So just before we started recording I let you know that I was pregnant and I’m preparing to head off on leave here. And I think one of the best accomplishments or one of the things I’m so proud of is that I’m self-employed but I’m prepping to take a period of time off from my business to be a new mom and to recover both myself and care for my baby and help care for my family.
And I think going into it I just feel so much pride and gratitude for this opportunity that I’ve created for myself to be able to step away from work for an extended period of time without all of this scarcity about it. I am nervous because I mean it’s an uncertain period of time and who knows what that will really look like? But I just overall feel so much joy and gratitude for this privilege that I get to now experience and take time off for this shift and change that I’m preparing for in my life.
And I think before having looked at my money beliefs about it, if I was to do something like this it would have just been probably I would have had so much drama about it, about whether or not I could do it, whether or not it was possible for me, whether or not. Yeah, I just think I would almost ruin the experience for myself ahead of time with all of the stress, and worry, and anxiety that I’d be creating as opposed to truly being able to sit in the gratitude, and the pride, and the opportunity that I have now to take some time away from my business.
And so, you can have the same circumstance with money but your emotional experience about that situation can totally change when you shift your beliefs, and you shift your thoughts about the money that you have.
Marissa: Yeah. And I had this experience when I was still working full-time in public health. And a lot of public health organizations in the US, for context, Natasha lives in Canada, so they have a different parental leave policy nationally than the US. But in the US even though we don’t have one, in public health organizations, whether it’s government, or academia, or even non-profit, usually they offer something. And it’s not that great to be honest. The last organization I was in it was basically you had to pay into disability and then you took disability, so it wasn’t really.
But even in that context where you have some access, folks do have a lot of scarcity beliefs about even with that access if they can take it, if it will support them enough, what they can do, and Natasha, you’re self-employed so it’s not like you even have that. And I think in both those circumstances it’s about believing you can create what you need to both circumstantially with your finances to support whatever leave you want but also emotionally.
Because when you’re pregnant and you can speak more to this than me because I’ve never been pregnant. There’s a lot of other stressors and emotions going on. So, to be able to create some peace with your money mindset and that you can take leave, and you have created some security and abundance for yourself to do that financially gives you so much more space for the other things that you have to think about, and plan for, and put into place.
Natasha: Exactly. That’s 100% it. There’s the financial security bucket which is literally having dollars in the bank. But then there is the emotional security bucket which is creating that calm and sense of peace and grounded-ness that doesn’t actually come from having money. That actually just comes from shifting your beliefs and your thoughts about the money.
And that is the part that is so powerful because as you said, when I can let go of the worry and anxiety and trust myself, and trust the security that I’ve created for myself, now I can spend my mental capacity thinking about other things. Because there’s so many other things to think about in pregnancy than just the money for this period of time off that I’m planning to step away from my business.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think it also it gives you so much more space to be creative, of how to create that financial circumstance you want. Because when you’re so in scarcity and believing you won’t have enough money or you can’t do it, it’s going to be a problem, your brain can’t be creative to think of, okay, well, how could I mix my PTO or sick leave? Or how can I really advocate for this policy change, or how can I start a side hustle to save money? Or how can my partner and I fix our leave schedule, so it supports us?
Whatever it may be, there’s so many options but when you’re in scarcity you can’t even get to that space to think creatively.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly, that’s 100% it. Then you don’t even see the other possibilities or other opportunities that might be available to you because you’re just generating a ton of worry, and stress, and anxiety, which never fuels positive steps forward to create your desired result essentially.
Marissa: Yeah. And with mine actually it’s so funny we’re doing this because mine actually has to do with starting my business. So, working in public health my whole career. And having the trajectory where you go to school, you get your bachelor’s, you get your master’s and then you follow a fellowship and it’s very structured, you follow this plan. The idea of starting a business, before I really did work on my money mindset I always had this, it’d be cool to have a social enterprise, social entrepreneur.
But I have to go to business school, I always thought that, or I should have got done an MBA, MPH. And I have to go back to school. And changing my money mindset and doing work I really realized that’s not true. I don’t have to go back and get another degree. I even looked into degrees where it’s like am I really going to pay $100,000/$150,000 to then go start? It was just changing my money mindset let me see I can do this now and I can create this now and I did while working.
And then was able to leave and to do that while working a public health job and then create a business that serves folks in public health and still make money and show myself I can make money. It still blows my mind sometimes when I think about it. And old Marissa three years ago would probably be in disbelief. But that’s the power of changing your money mindset.
Natasha: Totally. And I think that’s such an amazing example. So, for context, my background was in human resources. And I worked for over a decade in HR. And I’ve worked in a variety of different organizations, but I spent a lot of my career in government. And I don’t know if government is the same as public health type of positions, but I think it’s once people are in they want to just stay in their government position. And it’s laid out for them, and they have their pension, and benefits, and their career path already set up.
But then it becomes so much more of a mindset shift to be able to leave this very structured pathway or this ‘easier,’ not easier, you’re still working. And it’s more traditional and more laid out for you, to try something new. And I just saw so many people kind of limit themselves and their careers because they were just like, “Well, I’m here in this job, this pathway is laid out, this is what I’m supposed to be doing.” As opposed to pivoting and creating kind of their own, yeah, their own new next step or their own new venture or whatever.
And I just think it’s so interesting because oftentimes in those fields it is a little bit more scary and that is such a huge fete and accomplishment to be able to be like, “Hey, it took so much more courage and bravery for me to step away from this traditional pathway to do something that I’ve been contemplating, and thinking about, and dreaming about.”
Marissa: Yeah. And even for folks who are staying in the field, for you that might look like making more money than you thought was possible because everyone in your organization has only made x amount, and creating that. Or whether it’s going to a different sector, maybe going to the private sector of public health, and creating more money. And maybe it’s not even about increasing your salary, maybe it’s about buying a home, or investing, or feeling more empowered.
There’s so many different ways that you can use money mindset to create security and abundance in your experience with your finances. It’s not always just salary, or creating a business, it can be so many different things. So, with that I’d be curious, before coaching, maybe you had a good money mindset before coaching. So, if that’s true, you can just share your money mindset.
But I know for lots of folks, especially folks socialized as women, has helped us with our money mindset because of the way we’re socialized is coaching, or other forms of self-help, or podcasts to really think about it. So, I’m just curious, before coaching or before you really got into this work what was your money philosophy or money mindset?
Natasha: Yeah, totally. So, I think I was always just very aware that having money made your life easier or there were people with money and having money was a good accomplishment or a thing to strive towards. So, I think I just was aware of that. But for me I always thought it meant I had to save money. I came out of so much scarcity where I thought it’s not for someone who looks like me. It’s not for people who are like me. But if I can just save it because I’m so lucky to have what I have or I’m so lucky to have had this job, that I’ve been able to get or whatever, then I’ll be okay.
So, it kind of came from this hustle scarcity, worried mentality that wasn’t necessarily really serving me because it led to me staying in jobs for way too long or just thinking that I wasn’t really worthy of it, or I didn’t really deserve it. So, I would never negotiate a salary, or ask for more money, or try new things because I just thought that I was so lucky to be where I was. And I wasn’t even making that much money. It’s just that’s how I was socialized to think about it. So, it came so much from a saving.
There’s not going to be a lot out there. There’s not enough for me so I need to just make sure that I’m cutting out expenses to save it.
Marissa: Yeah, which a lot of what you’re speaking to is a lot of the messages that folks socialized as women get. Women are really taught when it comes to money of how you’re good with money is by saving. Where men are taught very different, you’re good with money by taking risks and investing. And women are taught, well, you should just feel lucky. It's not an exchange of value, you’re lucky to get a salary or you shouldn’t negotiate because it’s rude or you might lose it.
There’s so many messages that folks specifically socialized as women get about money compared to folks socialized as men.
Natasha: 100%, and that shows up all the time and it shows up in work environments. For example, I would see so many women or people socialized as women just opt out of negotiating their salary before they stepped into a new position because they thought they were just lucky to have that job offer. So, if you’re coming at it thinking that you’re lucky to even have that offer or get that position then of course you’re not going to speak up and ask for more or negotiate the benefits that you want to have. Maybe you want an extra week of vacation or whatever.
You’re not even coming at it from that lens and what I also found so fascinating, especially being in HR was seeing high performing women at work going into performance conversations, being extremely anxious about their work and about how they were performing in the organization. And so stressed to the point that sometimes they would be in tears going into these conversations.
And so, when that’s the emotional framework that you’re starting with, you are not coming into that conversation talking about your accomplishments, talking about what you’ve done for the organization and your clients. Or even talking about your desires in terms of your benefits, or salary increase, or promotion, or next opportunity. So those kinds of socializations limit and hold people in marginalized identities back in their work environments for sure.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think in helping professions like in public health, the added layer is that then you have this narrative of well, we don’t have that much money, or I know what the budget is, or we’re funded through grants. And so, then I feel bad. And it’s so interesting because that I think itself is also socialization based on gender because I saw so many of my male colleagues or peers who didn’t really have that narrative. They understood the budget, they knew that we were grant funded, but they were much more rooted in this is the value I’m providing, and I want to be compensated this way.
And I think again it’s our socialization of feeling lucky, or not burning others, or not taking an advantage. Versus no, this is the value I’m providing. And most women in public health are going way above and beyond their position title, their position description, their salary and just not feeling empowered to be able to say, “This is the value I’m providing, and this is what I want in return.” And then deciding what to do if you don’t get that.
Natasha: Exactly, right that. You always have a choice, you have a choice to stay and accept what is being offered. You have a choice to renegotiate, you have a choice to leave. There’s so many different opportunities but when you don’t see that you limit yourself. And what I think is so interesting, especially people in helping positions is they often act like they’re volunteers.
Marissa: Oh my gosh, yes.
Natasha: I’m like, “You’re not volunteering. This is a two way employment relationship. Your employer is getting something, and you are intended to get something. So now let’s actually have a conversation where you’re negotiating in that employment contract that is two ways. You’re not a volunteer for this organization.” You can volunteer in your personal time in other things, but your job is not a volunteer position.
And I think shifting that belief is a hard thing for people in helping positions because especially people socialized as women are taught that we’re supposed to put other people first. And that’s what makes us a good person, by emptying our cup, by giving everything to other people and you can’t do that. You have to start with grounding yourself and filling your own cup first before you can truly show up and serve other people.
Marissa: Yeah. And I also think it’s funny because once I started to get on the other side in public health where I was on hiring committees, where I was running the budget. What I saw behind the curtains is when there was a candidate that they wanted they would go to work to get them that extra salary if they asked. And we have this belief, well, I can’t ask, or I’ll lose it, or they’ll think I’m selfish, or greedy. And behind the curtain what folks don’t see is, no, they will do that work. And if they don’t then maybe it’s not the place for you.
But the understanding that if you ask they get to choose and often they’re doing that work to try to get you those funds and make it happen because they want you. And we don’t think of it that way, we’re not thinking my skills are desired, I’m valuable. We’re like, “Please give me money, please.”
Natasha: Right, exactly, like you’re asking for a handout from your organization that you’re paid your time for. It’s so interesting because if you were being offered the job you were their top candidate. You were someone they want to hire. So now they’ve decided they want to hire you, of course they’re going to try to meet your requests in terms of salary, or benefit, negotiation, or vacation time, or whatever. And so that’s the part to think about is they’re not doing you a favor by offering you a position. They need someone to fill the role and they want to hire you.
So that’s the role, that’s the piece that you have going into that conversation.
Marissa: Yeah. And same if you’re working in trying to negotiate for a promotion or raise, when I was doing the budgeting stuff I administered the budget, but I didn’t have the final say, people above me did. But what I saw was when they wanted something to happen with the budget they made that happen and moved it around whether it’s their salary increase or whether it’s funds to do a certain event. So, you can totally negotiate and bring up a raise and they may choose to say no and then you can choose to walk away.
But do not believe that they literally cannot change the budget, or find more money, or do work, they totally can. They get that choice, that’s not something you get to control. But what’s in your power is choosing to advocate for yourself, choosing to show up, choosing to decide what you want.
Natasha: Choosing to engage in that conversation as a very first step instead of just opting out entirely because you think it’s not possible. I have seen people in unionized positions be able to negotiate different salaries or get different benefits when people are telling me it’s impossible. It is always possible for you to kind of show up and ask, and for the employer, and the HR team, and your hiring manager to look into it and potentially make some exceptions, or make some changes, or whatever.
And so, you need to start with just first recognizing that it is a possibility because if you’re coming at it thinking there’s no way, there’s no hope then you just shut down all hope for yourself having that conversation, taking that [crosstalk].
Marissa: Yeah, definitely. So, we’ve talked a little bit about how folks who are socialized as women have absorbed some of these beliefs. I’m curious, do you think the clients you work with, the people you work with, that women of color have additional kind of messages they have absorbed about money that are layered on top?
Natasha: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And just for context for people who don’t know me. I’m biracial so I’m half Black, half white. And I’ve always lived in predominantly white communities, so I know what it’s like to live in a marginalized identity as a person of color. And I think for me when I was thinking about this question, when you had sent me some questions beforehand was it was more just the idea of luck. You’re lucky to be in this position. You’re lucky to have this money. Money isn’t for people like you, for families like you.
And so, I think for me that is what I would say predominantly is the additional layer of messaging. And I know everyone has different experiences but especially being either the only or one of few woman of color or people of color in an organization, I just think that that was kind of my experience in it. And it took away from me feeling confident enough to maybe speak up sometimes because I just felt, I’m just lucky to be here in this organization. I’m just so, I should be grateful for what I’m being given. I should just be happy with what I have.
As opposed to really owning the fact that, no, I am an equal member of the team just like everyone else.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think part of that, I always see it in public health a lot and in academia is around affirmative action which are policies that really try to promote more equity around hiring and really thinking about who you are hiring and why. And so, there is kind of an outcome of this narrative of, well, you’re just the diversity hire which when you look at the data, the folks who are most benefitted by affirmative action actually were white women. That’s who benefitted the most.
Natasha: Well, that’s basically what the DEI has really put an emphasis on women. And it’s basically supported and assisted white women to get into more leadership positions and seeing diversity of women and men on boards. It’s not even full diversity in that sense. It’s just a few women to kind of diversify the boards from just an all-white men basic equation. So now I think the conversation has opened up to recognizing all the other layers of marginalized identities that exist beyond just white women in organizations moving up the ‘corporate ladder’ if that’s what you want to call it.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think your comment about this belief that you’re just lucky also I think I’ve seen in other folks with other marginal identities also have some of these beliefs. So, some folks who are disabled, this belief, I’m just lucky to have this job. That also comes up with folks with other marginalized identities. And to me that belief system is by design by these systems of oppression, so you don’t advocate for yourself, so you don’t really believe in your values, so you don’t live fully as you are, so you don’t go for the big goals.
Natasha: Yeah. So, you don’t speak up, that belief immediately shuts you down because when you think you’re lucky and you should be grateful then of course you’re never going to rock the boat. Of course, you’re not going to bring up your ideas or try to create shift and change when you see problematic things happening in your organization, particularly around things like DEI. Yeah, so I really think that that, like you said, it’s by design. It's there to keep people small. It’s there to keep people quiet and just maybe give the image of diversity on the face of it.
But what truly is the organization doing to help support DEI initiatives beyond just a little bit of representation?
Marissa: Yeah. And then specifically in public health the truth is because especially – I mean all over the world but I’m thinking in the US context because that’s where most of my experience has been. The communities that we are serving are very diverse. And so, we need a workforce that is very diverse. So, it’s not about luck, it’s we need folks with all different types of lived experience and perspective at the table in the organization. And you deserve to be there, and you are so valuable because of your knowledge, your skills, and your lived experience.
And when you believe I’m just lucky then public health misses out on all of that.
Natasha: Literally the people in the communities that you serve miss out because they are not getting other perspectives, and thoughts, and beliefs brought into the conversation and lived experiences, 100%. It’s just a very limited viewpoint in conversations that are just filled with people who basically come from very similar lived experiences or very similar identities. And you’re just not able to fully serve people.
And I saw that a lot in HR as well where I would see discriminatory practices happen where people didn’t even realize that they were maybe discriminating because they just had such a limited viewpoint and there wasn’t enough diversity. Or there wasn’t enough people to maybe speak up for different things. So yeah, everyone kind of gets to benefit when we include people of different marginalized identities at seats at the table.
Marissa: Yes, absolutely. And the other thing that I hear a lot of women and Kara talks about this a lot, and we talk about this in other kind of spaces you and I, and in the coaching kind of feminist world. Is that women are taught to believe that their value is through how hard they work and not their intellect, or their innovation, or their ideas. And when what I’ve heard from a lot of my students of color is then this messaging for women of color, particularly Black women around well, you have to work twice as hard to get half as far, so it’s additional layer.
And so, then what I find happening is folks, they kind of go to work, they work twice as hard, they take on more work than they’re maybe asked to or their job description. And then they don’t negotiate for compensation for that because we’ve kind of been taught, well, if you’re working hard enough then they’ll notice and they’ll offer it to you which isn’t always, half the time it doesn’t.
Natasha: No, it doesn’t happen at all. And now basically the organization is benefitting from all this free labor of people of color or people of marginalized identities, yeah, for sure. It is an interesting thing to think about especially in money because we don’t live in a meritocracy. We don’t live in a world that’s fair where economic resources are evenly distributed amongst people. And to not acknowledge that I think is ignorant. And it almost puts a blind eye on what is actually happening in the world in which we live.
So, what I like to think about is yes, these oppressive structures do exist, 100% they do. And they are intended and designed to hold people of color or people in other marginalized identities back. And it does make it more challenging, and it provides more obstacles, but do I want to now opt out of the conversation, opt out because of these obstacles? Or do I want to show up and still work in the face of this to create change for myself, and change for future generations, and for other people who look like me?
I think about it as yes, we have to start by acknowledging the social structures that we live in and the inequalities that exist in our communities, of course they exist. And to not talk about them means you’re living a privileged life where you don’t even notice them and how lucky you are. But the reality is we don’t live in a meritocracy where things are just handed out evenly to everyone.
Marissa: Yeah. If they are handed out, it’s unevenly, inequitably.
Natasha: Inequitably.
Marissa: And I think you’re right. This conversation isn’t about denying the wage gap, or discrimination, or anything like that, but it’s saying you always have a choice. You have a choice to advocate to get paid more, or to get more benefits, for the value you are bringing. And if your employer chooses not to honor that you have a choice to stay or to leave. And you can open up so many more opportunities to think about how to create whatever financial wealth is for you, whether it’s salary, or benefits, or investing, or owning a home, or having a side hustle or whatever it will be.
When you open up the belief that even though you face these challenges or circumstances you have a choice and you can choose to create the wealth you want, that’s so much more empowering.
Natasha: Yes, exactly. When you come at it from an empowered place then you can actually work towards creating the shifts and changes that you want to see in your life versus just feel angry, and upset, and frustrated by all of the inequalities that are happening, because yes, they are happening. And of course, you’re entitled to feel angry, and upset, and frustrated for as long as you want. That’s 100% up to you but also recognize that when you take on the belief system that society’s offering you based on your marginalized identities.
So, if I take on the belief that money isn’t for someone who looks like me then I now become the oppressor of myself in my own brain. I am now limiting myself in my own mind because I’m choosing to believe the negative messaging that society has offered rather than disregarding that, or seeing it as bullshit and not a truth about me and my possibilities. And recognizing that I can choose to take a step forward to create change and create generational wealth for other people who look like me.
Marissa: Yeah. And I also think when you start – this happened to me, when I started to really do money mindset work one of the biggest things was actually seeing the ways in which I actually am good with money. Because we absorb these messages then we believe a lot of fallacies. And when I started to do this work I saw, actually I’m not bad with money, I’m great with money, look at all these ways, I’m investing, I am spending, that aligns with my values.
You can acknowledge the ways in which you are good with money and then you can choose to believe other things you want to, to create more money, or create more wealth, however you want to define that.
Natasha: Totally. And you get to define how being good or great with money actually looks like too. I think a lot of people fall into this pit of just listening to what society tells you what being good with money actually means and the rules of you need to spend 10% on a house. All of that is actual bullshit that has been created predominantly by wealthy rich old white men and rules that they have designed for themselves. And those rules might actually not fit you and your lifestyle, your values and what you want to create for yourself.
So, recognizing that you get to decide, maybe that means buying a coffee every single day because you enjoy drinking coffee and that’s totally fine. You don’t have to be like, “Well, this coffee calculation of how much I spend every single day is taking me away from my ability to buy a house,” or whatever that dumb [crosstalk] is. You get to set those rules for yourself and that’s truly where you can step into your own authority and power with your money.
Marissa: Yeah, I remember I had this moment, I think I was 25 or something where I read this book, I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, it’s called Rich Bitch, I forget the author’s name. But basically, it was written in a way, it was the first time I heard money advice that was, you get to decide. There’s not a right or wrong. It’s about what matters to you and your values. And it changes over time and that was so empowering to me. And to know that hey, buying isn’t always better than renting. Or getting a new car isn’t always better than having an old car.
Or investing isn’t always better than saving or whatever it may be. It’s about what works for you and your circumstance with your values, with your goals, and that changes over time.
Natasha: Yeah. And letting that be a fluid thing in your life and not having to be super rigid and structured. I love coaching on money mindset. I love digging into my own money mindset. I also just don’t have a budget. I think budgeting is terrible. I hate budgeting. I feel awful every time I sit down to budget. It’s not something that works for me. Putting my money into categories that I’m going to try to fit into the month just doesn’t make sense for me and my lifestyle.
And so, it’s just giving yourself the freedom and flexibility to have a relationship with your money in a way that actually is fun, and exciting and serves you rather than just trying to follow these arbitrary guidelines and rules that maybe aren’t set up for someone with your lifestyle and what you want to do in your own life.
Marissa: That was a perfect example because I love budgeting. I have a very specific budget that I do every single month. And it’s not one is right, and one is wrong. It’s, what is right for you.
Natasha: Exactly. That is the whole point of this is stepping into your own, being the decider of your own relationship with your money, literally. Do I like budgeting, that’s something that serves me or not? There’s no right or wrong. There’s none of these options is better or worse than the other.
Marissa: Yeah, definitely. And I’m seeing this a lot, I am engaged right now, me and my fiancé are talking through, “Okay, what do we want when we get married for our money to be? Do we want to share everything, do we not?” And I think one of what I’m in these conversations that I’m really proud of is because I’ve really thought about money and done my money mindset. I understand my own money philosophy and what matters to me, and where I want to keep independence and where I want to share things.
And as women there’s just hundreds of years of the socialization that women aren’t good with money, that men are smart with money and women aren’t, that they’re frivolous or whatever it may be. And that’s a lot to shed and that’s a lot of work on it. It still comes up for me of course. But being in these conversations with my fiancé, it’s just living in that empowerment of I know what I believe about money. I feel confident about it. It feels really good rather than fear driven, or scarcity, or putting myself down which I think a lot of women have been socialized to do.
Natasha: And also, you get to be an equal partner in this conversation with your fiancé. Whereas I think a lot of women in particular who have been socialized in these ways, opt out of these conversations and they just assume that they’re too stupid, or too dumb, or too frivolous and irresponsible with money and it’s not for them. Instead, it’s for usually their male partners to figure out, and take responsibility and ownership for it. And to me that’s just so sad. And I feel so disheartened by it all because it's not too smart for anyone, you can figure out money.
You can learn your own money philosophy. You can learn how you want to spend, and invest, and save your money, and grow your wealth. And just anything that you’re learning, it’s okay to make mistakes along the way. It’s okay to let it be a journey that you’re evolving on and figuring out, throughout whatever that progression happens to look like. I have coached a few women on investing recently and I thought it was so interesting because I don’t tell people what to invest in. I’m not a financial planner or advisor.
I just coach people on their money beliefs or their mindset about whatever action they want to take and so these people were coming at it thinking that they had to invest everything right away, all or nothing. There was no flexibility and no options. We got to the point in the conversation was like, “What if we just tried investing a little bit? If you’re learning a new skill, you’re not going to all of a sudden dump everything into it and just hope that it works out without just taking little baby steps.”
So, the fact that they just put so much pressure on themselves to know everything as opposed to letting it be a learning journey I thought was really fascinating. Because I think we’re socialized that we’re dumb and we can’t figure it out so we’re just like, “Oh my God, I need to just get away from this discomfort.” As opposed to if I was learning how to cook I wouldn’t all of a sudden start to make a seven course meal as my very first [inaudible].
Marissa: Yeah. And I think a layer on top of that because we do live in a capitalistic society, then we’re also told that the only measure of success is how much money you make. And in public health and helping professions I think that message gets muted a little bit. But it’s still there and so to say it doesn’t have an impact I don’t think is fair, it definitely has an impact, and it shows up in the ways we think about how we think about ourselves and what it means if we don’t own a home, or if we don’t invest, or if we don’t do these things.
And I think part of the money mindset work is undoing that and deciding for yourself on purpose what you want to believe about money, how you want to spend your money, how you want to save your money and what you want your money philosophy and values to be.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. And the whole point of this conversation isn’t to go out and tell people, “You should earn more, you should try to buy a house, or you should invest in these ways.” I never ever tell people what to do. It’s really about you examining your own belief systems and deciding for yourself what is right for you, recognizing that you have that power and that authority to decide. There is no right or wrong answer here. There’s no kind of solution that we’re trying to figure out for you. You know the solution for yourself.
And uncovering some of these limiting beliefs and starting to question them is really how you dig into that, and you get to know yourself on a much deeper level. I think your relationship with money is a reflection of your relationship with yourself and how you’re treating yourself. This is why I love coaching on it so much, it’s never about the money, it’s never about earning money. It’s never about saving money.
It’s really about how are you showing up for yourself and having your own back, and loving who you are, and loving the choices that you’re making. And respecting yourself and showing up with compassion and understanding for the person that you are.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think in helping professions we kind of have absorbed this belief that you can’t make money and do good work in the world. And so, for everyone listening I would say that for so many of you, it’s hard to access what your true desire is with money because it’s so weighed down by that internalized belief. So, undoing that is kind of the first step to being able to access what you truly do want. If you truly do want to make more money or do want to buy something specific, or spend money on travel versus spend money on a home or whatever it may be.
We’ve got to lift that limiting belief that’s not true, that to do good work in the world you can’t make good money or have wealth off of that.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. That’s such a powerful starting point because that belief immediately stops you from questioning or thinking about, yeah, thinking about your own desires, and your own needs, and what you want to cultivate and create in your work and in your life, and what you want that to look like. So, I think that’s a beautiful starting point. And recognizing, this is how I think about money, I think of money as just a tool. It’s a tool that I get to use to create the life that I want to have. It is not a reflection of my worth. It’s not a reflection of who I am as a person or my moral character.
It's just the currency that we’ve decided in society that we use to exchange values, and goods, and services, and products and things like that.
Marissa: Right. And we’ve literally just created this paper and said it’s valuable. There has been times in histories and some communities still today, they don’t have money as currency. And they trade things, or they trade services. And this idea that this piece of paper, humans just created that and assigned value to it. And so, it is just a tool.
Natasha: And my favorite thing about it is we don’t even use cash these days. It’s all digital currency on screens with numbers. It’s just so funny thinking how meta it is, we don’t even touch it physically. It’s just all electronic.
Marissa: Yeah. And I don’t know if you have this experience, but I do and I get cash for birthdays or something, it feels different. It’s free money. It doesn’t come out of my bank account. Yeah, it’s really trippy when you think about it and now of course with cryptocurrency which we won’t get into but that’s a whole another layer of mind fuck a little bit. Yeah, I think money is a tool. I also think of it, for me and I’m not saying anyone else should have this belief. You can try it on and see if it works for you.
But for me right where I am in my life, I like to think of money as a way to express my values, whether that’s spending money in organizations I support or whether it’s spending money in support of what I find fun, what I enjoy. There’s so many different ways to use money as an expression of who you are, whether it’s buying make-up that you love, or it’s buying products from a company you support, or whatever it may be, it’s an expression almost.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. It’s a way to create, I think the community that you want to live in by voting on what organizations you want to spend your money on, or what local shops, or what businesses you want to support, or where you want to donate your money. It is a tool that you can use to create change and I love to think of money as that. We just assign so much morality to it, but it’s really not that. I love how you said it’s a way to express who you are. And you can only get to know yourself more through the money if you let yourself question those beliefs.
Marissa: Yes. And question the judgment. We’ve been kind of told to judge how people spend their money and what they spend it on. And I’m definitely not out of this, at the Clutch College one of the things I had to get coached on was my judgment of the Kardashians. Because I had all these beliefs. Well, they have all this money, and they should be doing this, they should be doing that. And that doesn’t serve me at all, having this judgment. And just seeing that money is neutral, someone else spending money every month on getting manicures and pedicures isn’t a problem.
Me spending money every month on traveling isn’t a problem. The judgment is optional when it comes to the money usage and money saving and all that.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. And when we’re spending our time and energy judging other people we know that’s just a mirror of us judging ourselves and our own spending. So, when you see that come up it’s like get curious of why is it so problematic for me that other people are making these choices? Where am I judging myself and my own spending habits? Because one of the things that I think is so important with money is de-shamifying it as a very first starting point.
So many of my clients hold so much shame about past spending, or current spending, or money decisions, or choices that they’ve made. And we just need to start by taking off that layer of shame and just letting you be a human who’s showing up in the world imperfectly, try to figure things out. And yeah, allowed to make new choices now if they want to, or keep making the old choices, it’s totally fine. All of it is okay, if we lower the stakes and not fuel it with so much shame then we can start to get a little bit more curious about what’s actually happening and what’s actually going on.
Marissa: Yeah. And this isn’t to say you have to feel neutral about everything. You can still decide on purpose, hey, I don’t believe we should live in a world where there are billionaires and then there are people who can’t afford the basic living. You can choose to hold that belief, but I just want folks to notice when you come to looking at the way other people make money or spend money from deep judgment then actually what ends up happening which is so ironic is you stop spending your money in a way that algins with your values and what you want to do.
Because you’re just kind of in this tug, blame, shame space that you can’t get really much movement and traction to live and use the money in the ways that you want to because you’re just so in judgment.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. You’re so focused on other people that you’re not focused on yourself. You’re allowed to focus on other people if you want to, that’s totally fine, it’s okay. But just recognize if it’s creating a lot of negative emotion for you, that might not actually be fueling your own money decisions in the way that you want to. And it may be taking you away from getting curious about your own values, your own priorities, your own beliefs, and things like that.
So, I mean like we said before, we’re never here to tell anyone what to think, you always get to decide for yourself. But I just always think a beautiful place to start is just getting curious about what’s happening because when you come from it with curiosity that’s when you can start to decide whether or not you like what you’re believing. Whether it’s serving you or whether you want to try to believe something else on purpose.
Marissa: Yeah, definitely. And I think for me doing some of this work around my judgments with people who make a lot of money. And I think a lot of folks in helping professions where we, there are limitations about how much grants we have, and funding, and the government making decisions, and donations, and the non-profit industrial complex, and all of that. And I think we tend to go to that place of judgment, of the people in the world who hold a lot of money or have a lot of money.
And through my own coaching work I still hold some opinions around, well, I don’t want to support x, y, and z, or I want to try not to support them. But I also have created more of this opinion of I’m going to do the work in the world I can to make sure folks who are helping others and in public health are getting paid their value. And so, it’s both, I can hold this belief, but I also can create a belief that fuels me in a direction that creates the action and the life that I want to live.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. It’s recognizing what’s in your realm of control. And not stewing on things that are totally out of your control that take you away from intentional action towards the things that are literally within your control, that you can do, which is how much you pay people, how much you spend on different services, what organizations you choose to buy from, those types of things, exactly.
Marissa: Yeah. So, I’ve heard you say a couple of things, folks who are listening can start to examine their money mindset, one of which is just getting curious. Do you have any recommendations of how folks can actually get curious and do that initial work to explore their thoughts around money? Because so many of us, we just think the thoughts about money, and we have it as facts.
Natasha: For sure, and a lot of it is reinforced by either family, friends, people in society, so it’s so much a question. So honestly the way that I think is the best thing is just literally write all your thoughts out about money on a piece of paper, get them out. You can honestly just ask yourself, what do I think about money, or what do I think about people who have and earn money? Get it all out and that is your starting point of all of the things that you are believing about money, both consciously and subconsciously.
You’ve gotten them all out on paper and from that point in time start to get curious about those beliefs. Do they actually feel good for you? Do they actually make you show up in the way that you want to be showing up at work to earn more money, if that’s your goal, and your side hustle to earn more money, if that’s what you want to be doing. Whatever you want to be doing notice if those beliefs actually bring you closer towards the goals that you want to have in your life. And if not, start to question them.
What if the opposite was true, what if this wasn’t an actual fact of the world, can I find any evidence that might prove otherwise? And just start to stretch your brain and your capacities around what you’ve simply been accepting as truth with money.
Marissa: Yeah. I think that’s great. And then I also would add on to that of think about where you’ve received money messages from, family or figures in the world and just question that. A lot of the predominant financial voices in society and in mainstream are they reflective of your lived experience? Are they reflective of your community? Are they reflective of your values? It is very skewed. So, when we start to question where we’re getting these messages from, that can also help us open up a little bit more.
Natasha: Yes, totally. And one of the questions I love to ask myself and ask my clients is who benefits from me keeping this belief? Do I benefit from believing that women are frivolous and irresponsible with money? Do people socialized as women benefit or is it other people in society? Just really starting to question the benefit of that belief and whether or not it’s benefiting you. It can be so powerful and such deep work.
Marissa: Yeah. And I think about this in the helping and public health in general. When a lot of folks in public health don’t believe that they’re good with money, or deserve money, or they’re just lucky, or they’re just volunteering. And then they don’t advocate to get more money then the government doesn’t have to figure out how to allocate more budget.
A way to hold the government or other funding sources accountable to support this work and the value of it is for all of us to work on our money mindsets and really come to work advocating for ourselves, and what we want, and our value. And that moves up. And it’s not to say it’s going to happen overnight but it’s a collective power we’re creating by doing that individual work.
Natasha: Yes, exactly. It can be so powerful and so transformational for the communities in which we live and work. So yeah, it benefits everyone, not just yourself. When you earn more money, or you dig into these belief systems, and you really start to question what you’ve been taking in and how you’ve been socialized. You’re not just changing your own life, you’re changing people who are connected to you lives. So, either future generations, your family, people who look like you, people in the community with you. It just carries forward.
And that’s why I’m so passionate about money mindset work is because I see it as a way to create true change in our communities and in our societies in which we live.
Marissa: Yeah, I agree. We have more folks in public health who really are thinking about every decision in their life in a way of how is this impacting my community because that’s kind of how we’re trained. Money is a part of that and how you choose to use your money. And if you make more money you’re just going to do more good in the world because you’re going to spend it in places in your community that aligns with your values.
And so, I know a lot of folks say we want more folks in helping professions with kind of that belief in community to have more money so that we can create more wealth across our kind of communities.
Natasha: Yeah, totally.
Marissa: Well, thank you so much, Natasha. Is there anything we didn’t cover you want to share before we close out including share where folks can find you and all of that?
Natasha: Yeah, for sure. We’ve covered so many topics, so thank you so much for having me. This was such a fun conversation. So, if you are interested in connecting with me you can find me on my website which is my first and last name, so Natasha N-A-T-A-S-H-A Tekeste T-E-K-E-S-T-E.com or you can find me on Instagram and my handle is just my first and last name.
Marissa: And we will link all of those in the show notes so you can all get connected to Natasha and all her great work. And thank you so much for coming. We did cover a lot, but it just is there’s so much here which is why money mindset is just such an important part of our self-development especially as folks socialized as women.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. And especially as people in helping positions, really it’s so much more beneficial for you to be able to earn more money because we know that you just have this kind, caring, loving heart and just wants to do good in the world. And it has to start with you doing good for yourself, just advocating for yourself and the money and wealth that you want to create.
Marissa: Yes. Okay, with that, we can’t end on a better note, we’ll wrap up here. Thank you so much everyone, I’ll talk to you next week.
Natasha: Thanks for having me.
If you found this episode helpful then you have to check out my coaching program where I provide you individualized support to create a life centered around rest. Head on over to mckoolcoaching.com, that’s M-C-K-O-O-L coaching.com to learn more.
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